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[Music]

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Washington DC and UFOs we always think

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of the uh the the nation's capital what

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happened in 1952 with these UFOs that

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buzzed the capital

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um and when we think of tic tacs we

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think of the now famous 2004 Nimitz

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event but you actually within the

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Project Blue Book files were able to dig

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up a case that kind of involved both of

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these so could you maybe

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um yeah yeah wherever you want to take

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it tell us about incident 207 the Tic

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Tac over Washington DC if you don't mind

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oh sorry because I was talking to my

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sister uh my bad sorry no worries my man

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um no uh this was I I have an unhealthy

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obsession with the blue book files

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obviously and my my wife said I'm kind

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of obsessed with it and I'm going

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through them all the time and

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a lot of people don't realize that they

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hear like incident 17 the Kenneth Arnold

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thing you know there there's a half

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dozen or so that get a lot of coverage

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there's been all sorts of

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um you know documentaries made and

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articles written about them I ran across

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this one case and it was listed in the

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Blue Book files as incident 207.

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but this was well before the very famous

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Washington DC thing and it happened in

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1948

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and

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uh the file is really long

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I'll just say in advance a lot of people

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eight to a dozen Blue Book cases that

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have been covered in books and in

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documentaries and TV shows and we all

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talk about them Kenneth Arnold that was

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incident 17. there are more than seven

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thousand files in the Blue Book cases

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literally more than seven thousand a lot

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of them

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have almost nothing to them there's one

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or two pages you know and it's like oh

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we got a report from somebody who said

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they saw the light and it was closed and

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nobody did anything but buried in those

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files there are a bunch of gems and 207

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that was that was a great one that I

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found uh earlier this year and went

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ahead and the debrief did a whole

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background investigation into it with

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the

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people that were involved we had names

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we had dates we had times we had places

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you know and there was a time

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um and I'm just trying to get the date

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right now yeah November 18th 1948 this

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was several years before the one you

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mentioned in Washington DC

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where

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there were pilots who encountered

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something they couldn't explain

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over

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um

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Andrews Air Force Base

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in Maryland but it's right in the border

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of Maryland it's right next to

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Washington DC

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and they ran into an object that

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nobody could identify what the heck it

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was

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and it did some really amazing things

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and

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there were two pilots it took us a long

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time to sort through

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the details because there were some

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errors in the records but there were

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three Pilots most likely in two

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different planes who ran into an object

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they described as

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elongated oval uh things like that it

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really sounded like a Tic Tac

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which came over Andrews Air Force Base a

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military Air Force Base we're still in a

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very

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that period right and

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there was another witness on the ground

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all military Witnesses all of impeccable

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qualifications

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who watched this happen

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and it lasted for 15 to 18 minutes

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and

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there were one or two planes we now

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believe two planes that were coming into

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land at Air at Andrews

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and they were suddenly encountered by

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something

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that they couldn't describe but it

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sounded a lot like a Tic Tac

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and it was just buzzing in amongst them

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while someone on the ground all military

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personnel were watching and it started

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just circling and chasing them and doing

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these weird evasive maneuvers and

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jumping up and down and going into these

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tight circles that our planes couldn't

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duplicate

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and then

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literally more than 15 minutes later

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apparently got bored

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and took off to the Northeast and headed

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off over it was it was doing the thing

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was doing more than 80 miles an hour

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AirSpeed circling

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and then did more than 500 miles an hour

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heading off to the Northeast and

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disappearing over the Atlantic

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and it was a really remarkable case and

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the more the debrief dug into it you

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know it it's just like wow we have the

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names of all of the people who were

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involved in it three different Pilots

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one sergeant that was on the ground

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watching and Reporting all of this and

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the entire Blue Book files when they

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looked at this they didn't have an

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explanation for it but it never caught

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the attention of the broader media I've

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never seen a big documentary like the

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ones you've been involved in

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you know

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um this thing was doing crazy stuff

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it came in and went into these tight

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circles they couldn't follow it was

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better than our planes and at one point

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when somebody got behind it

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they put one of their Landing lights on

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it and said it was kind of glowing but

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it immediately jumped up slowed down

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went behind them dropped down behind

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them and started following them again

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this was not a balloon

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you know it was a crazy encounter and we

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documented the whole thing in the

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article I'm assuming you're linking it

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in the thing but it was

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no it was not I'm amazed there hasn't

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been somebody that sent a TV crew out

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because when I went and investigated it

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some of the relatives of the pilots that

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were involved are still alive they are

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out there you can talk to them

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um they didn't want me to quote them

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directly

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it was kind of a touchy thing

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but this was a very real thing that

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happened and it looked like a Tic Tac

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and it went dodging planes and they came

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Within four and a half five miles at a

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minimum of the White House

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of the Capitol building in Washington DC

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it's right over the Border

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and then it took off at speeds that no

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plane should have been able to manage at

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that time I found it to be a really

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remarkable case Ryan and

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holy cow

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and we we got we dug up all the data we

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have the tombstone of one of the uh the

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pilots that was involved we have their

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early marital records and all that stuff

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these were all real people that

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experienced this thing

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and nobody's ever explained it what

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happened somebody actually probably two

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planes with three Pilots was chasing

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what for all

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appearances sounded like a Tic Tac right

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over Washington DC in 1948 several years

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before the more famous incident so

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that's what we found

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well and the other thing that really

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stuck out to me like you mentioned in

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the article and here is it headed

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towards the water just like the Tic Tac

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in 2004 so I mean again what are we

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dealing with and it comes to these like

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oblong-shaped or or almost

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tic-tac-shaped white objects luminous

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objects that are making these

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unbelievable Maneuvers in 1948 mind you

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like that's a big leap from 48 to 2004

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so you know are we dealing with the same

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technology or or intelligence behind

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whatever that thing was

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um how much has it evolved since from 48

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to 2004 or were they probably completely

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different objects I don't know but it's

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these small connections you can make the

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shape the fact that it went over to the

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water the fact that it was making these

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unbelievable Maneuvers

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um crazy now Jess let me ask you this

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um I think I remember from the article

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did they say that this object made noise

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yeah it made

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well we can't say the object made noise

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okay there were four Witnesses three or

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more pilots and we believe at this point

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that they were two pilots in one plane a

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T6 Texan and in a second plane but one

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of the witnesses was a sergeant on the

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ground who was standing watch on the

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Airfield and he described

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the sound

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as being very loud like a t-48 do I have

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that wrong

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oh God I hope I don't

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yeah I don't recall

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no I'm trying to look because that's an

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it's an important part of the story no

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I'm sorry it's a republic P-47

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Thunderbolt

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and this guy was very it's obvious he

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was very familiar

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with the sounds of aircraft because that

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was his job that's where he worked and

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he described it as being like a very

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loud sounding uh P-47 Thunderbolt

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but did the sound come from the weird

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Tech shaped object or did it come from a

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second airplane and our research at the

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debrief showed that there were three

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Pilots reporting about this but two of

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them were in a T6 Texan

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the T6 Texan is a trainer aircraft it

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only has two seats there's no room for

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anybody else

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so most likely and this is my

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interpretation

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there was a second aircraft up there and

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that was the aircraft that was being

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piloted by the third pilot

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who was in AP 47 Thunderbolt which is a

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tremendously loud aircraft and that

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would explain the whole thing

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except for the weird oblong thing they

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were chasing you know so the the

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investigation had if you read the

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article

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a number of Errors they didn't have the

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third Pilot's name correct

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um they had his middle initial wrong and

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the lesson him as uh Glenn L stalker as

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a lieutenant uh second Lieutenant but

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the debrief went and found his military

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records and uh not to say this

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disrespectfully his headstone

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um his name was actually Glenn Elder

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stalker he was Glenn E stalker

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and he was a pilot but he wasn't a

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lieutenant they had a program at the

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time that allowed commissioned uh

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non-commissioned officers uh Petty

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officers

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um

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non-commissioned officers ncos uh to be

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Pilots if they went through pilot

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training they couldn't engage in combat

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missions but they could do training

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missions and stalker was a pilot who

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could fly that type of aircraft and he

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was probably up in the air at the same

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time as the two guys in the two in the

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T6 Texan

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and it it all fits together

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but the the investigory team the

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investigatory team

282
00:13:08,509 --> 00:13:05,880
didn't really do a good job because they

283
00:13:10,850 --> 00:13:08,519
didn't track down all of his records and

284
00:13:13,850 --> 00:13:10,860
even today all these years all these

285
00:13:15,710 --> 00:13:13,860
decades later we were able to find them

286
00:13:19,310 --> 00:13:15,720
you know we know exactly who this guy

287
00:13:21,949 --> 00:13:19,320
was and he saw something he could not

288
00:13:24,949 --> 00:13:21,959
explain but he was one of the three

289
00:13:27,410 --> 00:13:24,959
witnesses that watched all this happen

290
00:13:30,350 --> 00:13:27,420
and then we had another witness on the

291
00:13:31,730 --> 00:13:30,360
ground who talked about a sound that was

292
00:13:36,650 --> 00:13:31,740
very

293
00:13:40,009 --> 00:13:36,660
to the plane that the third pilot was

294
00:13:42,290 --> 00:13:40,019
probably piloting and it it all kind of

295
00:13:46,310 --> 00:13:42,300
makes sense but I mean everybody's dead

296
00:13:48,710 --> 00:13:46,320
now so what do we know yeah that's

297
00:13:51,050 --> 00:13:48,720
always the case it's always a race with

298
00:13:53,449 --> 00:13:51,060
the Undertaker when it comes to a lot of

299
00:13:55,850 --> 00:13:53,459
these older cases um but what I

300
00:13:57,910 --> 00:13:55,860
appreciate about cases like this jazz is

301
00:14:01,490 --> 00:13:57,920
you know this is part of project sign

302
00:14:03,590 --> 00:14:01,500
originally which was you know before the

303
00:14:06,530 --> 00:14:03,600
kind of whitewashing publicity stunt

304
00:14:08,389 --> 00:14:06,540
that would become Project Blue Book so

305
00:14:09,889 --> 00:14:08,399
you get a lot more

306
00:14:14,930 --> 00:14:09,899
um

307
00:14:16,910 --> 00:14:14,940
thorough investigation when you know

308
00:14:20,090 --> 00:14:16,920
Grudge and sign were still kind of

309
00:14:21,590 --> 00:14:20,100
taking this very seriously

310
00:14:23,150 --> 00:14:21,600
um instead of you know what would

311
00:14:25,370 --> 00:14:23,160
eventually become Project Blue Book

312
00:14:26,810 --> 00:14:25,380
where they just would debunk every case

313
00:14:29,629 --> 00:14:26,820
with

314
00:14:32,470 --> 00:14:29,639
um impossible explanations sometimes

315
00:14:36,590 --> 00:14:32,480
um I I love the fact that this happened

316
00:14:38,629 --> 00:14:36,600
pre-project Blue Book um and and yeah

317
00:14:40,490 --> 00:14:38,639
yeah that's what I love I love when we

318
00:14:43,430 --> 00:14:40,500
can dig up these old cases um last

319
00:14:45,290 --> 00:14:43,440
question on this case and maybe I missed

320
00:14:46,610 --> 00:14:45,300
this in the article or I'm just not

321
00:14:48,769 --> 00:14:46,620
remembering

322
00:14:52,129 --> 00:14:48,779
um and I just had to Google when was

323
00:14:53,870 --> 00:14:52,139
radar created and used in the Air Force

324
00:14:54,710 --> 00:14:53,880
um because I do not know the answer to

325
00:14:56,870 --> 00:14:54,720
that

326
00:14:59,269 --> 00:14:56,880
um was any of this tracked on radar

327
00:15:02,629 --> 00:14:59,279
prior to them seeing it visually or were

328
00:15:05,030 --> 00:15:02,639
they able to it almost certainly was

329
00:15:07,009 --> 00:15:05,040
tracked okay

330
00:15:12,970 --> 00:15:07,019
um I was a writer technician in the Navy

331
00:15:18,170 --> 00:15:12,980
as you know uh but the ability to record

332
00:15:20,750 --> 00:15:18,180
radar data right for later use that came

333
00:15:24,110 --> 00:15:20,760
a lot later you only have the testimony

334
00:15:25,250 --> 00:15:24,120
of the people who were observing it at

335
00:15:28,610 --> 00:15:25,260
the time

336
00:15:30,009 --> 00:15:28,620
so no there there is no

337
00:15:33,350 --> 00:15:30,019
uh

338
00:15:36,530 --> 00:15:33,360
radar data that's down on paper

339
00:15:40,430 --> 00:15:36,540
somewhere that that we can dredge up we

340
00:15:42,829 --> 00:15:40,440
don't have that from the from 1948.

341
00:15:45,949 --> 00:15:42,839
um but yeah we had radar obviously we

342
00:15:48,110 --> 00:15:45,959
were tracking everything all the time it

343
00:15:50,569 --> 00:15:48,120
was mostly done vocally and if you don't

344
00:15:55,610 --> 00:15:50,579
get a record of somebody talking about

345
00:15:56,629 --> 00:15:55,620
it that was saved then you don't have

346
00:15:59,030 --> 00:15:56,639
that

347
00:16:01,910 --> 00:15:59,040
but this was an absolutely real sighting

348
00:16:05,750 --> 00:16:01,920
it was on radar that that's why planes

349
00:16:07,129 --> 00:16:05,760
were dispatched you know it there was

350
00:16:09,769 --> 00:16:07,139
something going on there was something

351
00:16:12,470 --> 00:16:09,779
up there yeah but no we don't have the

352
00:16:14,389 --> 00:16:12,480
level of detail we have with

353
00:16:16,069 --> 00:16:14,399
um a lot of later cases that we've

354
00:16:18,410 --> 00:16:16,079
investigated and studied at the debrief

355
00:16:22,069 --> 00:16:18,420
you know we we don't have the actual

356
00:16:23,269 --> 00:16:22,079
tracks we don't have altitude or things

357
00:16:26,210 --> 00:16:23,279
like that

358
00:16:28,490 --> 00:16:26,220
everything does rely on the witnesses

359
00:16:31,790 --> 00:16:28,500
relies on the pilots

360
00:16:34,610 --> 00:16:31,800
the the really remarkable part and these

361
00:16:35,629 --> 00:16:34,620
are three different Pilots with a long

362
00:16:38,329 --> 00:16:35,639
record

363
00:16:41,389 --> 00:16:38,339
and they launched the circling pattern

364
00:16:43,310 --> 00:16:41,399
that they were trying to chase it and it

365
00:16:46,850 --> 00:16:43,320
would suddenly jump up and drop behind

366
00:16:48,470 --> 00:16:46,860
them and start chasing them again and

367
00:16:51,230 --> 00:16:48,480
then it took off

368
00:16:54,110 --> 00:16:51,240
and these are pilots that are relatively

369
00:16:56,210 --> 00:16:54,120
short distance who said yeah the speed

370
00:16:58,730 --> 00:16:56,220
of the object was

371
00:16:59,749 --> 00:16:58,740
around 80 miles an hour when it was

372
00:17:02,329 --> 00:16:59,759
circling

373
00:17:04,250 --> 00:17:02,339
over Andrews

374
00:17:06,730 --> 00:17:04,260
and then it took off

375
00:17:12,949 --> 00:17:06,740
and it flew off at at least

376
00:17:15,890 --> 00:17:12,959
500 miles an hour wow what did we have

377
00:17:20,750 --> 00:17:15,900
in the late 1940s

378
00:17:21,770 --> 00:17:20,760
that could do more than 500 miles an

379
00:17:25,789 --> 00:17:21,780
hour

380
00:17:28,189 --> 00:17:25,799
it just took off and disappeared

381
00:17:29,930 --> 00:17:28,199
and that's one of the most at least in

382
00:17:31,610 --> 00:17:29,940
my opinion one of the most powerfully

383
00:17:35,150 --> 00:17:31,620
compelling

384
00:17:37,370 --> 00:17:35,160
bits of testimonial evidence

385
00:17:39,890 --> 00:17:37,380
from actual pilots who flew some of the

386
00:17:41,450 --> 00:17:39,900
best planes of that time and they're

387
00:17:44,390 --> 00:17:41,460
like

388
00:17:47,270 --> 00:17:44,400
we don't know I I don't know what the

389
00:17:49,190 --> 00:17:47,280
hell that was it out maneuvered us it

390
00:17:51,169 --> 00:17:49,200
was way faster than us

391
00:17:53,029 --> 00:17:51,179
and still there were people inside a

392
00:17:55,070 --> 00:17:53,039
blue book who came back and said oh

393
00:17:57,590 --> 00:17:55,080
that's probably a balloon

394
00:17:59,230 --> 00:17:57,600
really you got a balloon doing that

395
00:18:04,850 --> 00:17:59,240
really

396
00:18:09,130 --> 00:18:04,860
it's I I'm sorry I'm credulous uh

397
00:18:11,870 --> 00:18:09,140
that does that that sounds like you

398
00:18:14,570 --> 00:18:11,880
you're given a balloon a lot of credit

399
00:18:17,750 --> 00:18:14,580
at that point yeah tell me about it man

400
00:18:20,029 --> 00:18:17,760
yeah I mean wasn't it I think even in

401
00:18:22,010 --> 00:18:20,039
the article one of the one of the pilots

402
00:18:25,549 --> 00:18:22,020
kind of concluded his thoughts saying

403
00:18:27,409 --> 00:18:25,559
this was not a balloon give me a gosh

404
00:18:29,630 --> 00:18:27,419
darn break on that oh that no that

405
00:18:31,430 --> 00:18:29,640
wasn't one of the pilots no none of the

406
00:18:33,710 --> 00:18:31,440
pilots thought it was a balloon yeah

407
00:18:36,010 --> 00:18:33,720
that one thing you're referring to that

408
00:18:39,409 --> 00:18:36,020
was one of the Blue Book investigators

409
00:18:41,870 --> 00:18:39,419
responding to another investigator who

410
00:18:44,330 --> 00:18:41,880
said this this might be a balloon we

411
00:18:46,250 --> 00:18:44,340
should check that out and another one of

412
00:18:49,190 --> 00:18:46,260
the Blue Book investigators came in and

413
00:18:51,770 --> 00:18:49,200
put in a one sentence thing right on the

414
00:18:54,110 --> 00:18:51,780
end of that and the next page going

415
00:18:57,110 --> 00:18:54,120
this wasn't a weather balloon

416
00:18:58,730 --> 00:18:57,120
because that that's a hell of a lot to

417
00:19:02,210 --> 00:18:58,740
expect from balloon

418
00:19:04,909 --> 00:19:02,220
so yeah I I I still think man I I hope

419
00:19:08,870 --> 00:19:04,919
you have friends that are

420
00:19:11,450 --> 00:19:08,880
like in the industry that do a lot of

421
00:19:13,669 --> 00:19:11,460
documentaries about these things we have

422
00:19:17,029 --> 00:19:13,679
seen so many cases about like um

423
00:19:19,490 --> 00:19:17,039
incident 17 was Kenneth Arnold everybody

424
00:19:22,370 --> 00:19:19,500
knows about that there's a bunch of

425
00:19:23,930 --> 00:19:22,380
others I think this one is right up

426
00:19:26,450 --> 00:19:23,940
there on the top of the list and I would

427
00:19:29,029 --> 00:19:26,460
love to see somebody in the industry get

428
00:19:32,510 --> 00:19:29,039
out there and go take this article I

429
00:19:34,730 --> 00:19:32,520
publish dig into it we got the names I

430
00:19:37,070 --> 00:19:34,740
have names of descendants of these

431
00:19:38,750 --> 00:19:37,080
people who didn't want to be quoted in

432
00:19:40,610 --> 00:19:38,760
the article but they're willing to talk

433
00:19:42,049 --> 00:19:40,620
about it I would love to see somebody

434
00:19:44,990 --> 00:19:42,059
put something together about this and

435
00:19:47,150 --> 00:19:45,000
put it out for people to see because I

436
00:19:49,730 --> 00:19:47,160
honestly believe this is this is one of

437
00:19:53,570 --> 00:19:49,740
the more remarkable cases that is so

438
00:19:56,210 --> 00:19:53,580
undercovered in the entire subject just

439
00:19:59,330 --> 00:19:56,220
me but I've been doing this a long time

440
00:20:01,789 --> 00:19:59,340
just like you have and yeah this is a

441
00:20:04,130 --> 00:20:01,799
crazy one that has received very little

442
00:20:05,630 --> 00:20:04,140
attention

443
00:20:08,190 --> 00:20:05,640
please